Surviving to Thriving

Melina Lipkiewicz, Suria Ward, and Ben Colley discuss how to take your teams to the next level.

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Watch the full webinar on YouTube.

Speakers

Melina Lipkiewicz

Executive Coach at PeopleQ

Suria Ward

Director at PeopleQ

Ben Colley

COO at Teamgage

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Transcript

Ben Colley  

Fantastic. Looks like we've got plenty of people joining. Welcome. Sorry, go Melina.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

No, I was gonna say certainly does Ben. I'm excited

Ben Colley  

That participants counter is just jumping off. So we'll give everyone another minute or two just to join the room and then we'll kick off. Welcome to everyone that has joined in

Hope everyone is having a fantastic day so far. If you're in Adelaide, it is a beautiful day out there. Actually went for a little wander around the Botanic Gardens, where we're based is just next door to that. So I had a little stroll around there before we sort of kicked off, which was a nice way to break up the day. What about you Mel? Have you been out in the sun at all?

Melina Lipkiewicz  

I was just about to say, Ben, g'day to Nora from New South Wales. And oh, sorry. That was Tim. I love the recognition of country as well. Tim Collins. Yes, I launched a workshop with anew leadership group this morning. So I haven't had the chance to step outside yet. But hopefully after this, I'll go and soak in some of that sunshine.

Ben Colley  

Make sure you're thriving for the rest of the day. Awesome. Well, I would suggest the numbers are looking pretty good. We're two minutes in to our share of time so perhaps we'll kick things off.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Oh, hi Jodie in Launceston. I'm missing that part of the world right now.

Ben Colley  

Oh I have not been down to Tassie for a while. Yeah, need to go. I went to a beautiful restaurant there many years ago called Stillwater. I think it's specifically in Launceston. Fantastic part of the world.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

oh, it's just glorious.

Ben Colley  

Well, let's, uh, get this show on the road. So welcome to everyone that has joined in. And thank you very much. We're all here to talk about how we can take teams to the next level and go from simply just surviving to thriving. So my name is Ben Colley. I'm the COO at Teamgage. And with me today, I have two of the fantastic team and actually co CEOs from PeopleQ. I have Melina, who you can see up on the slideshow, and also Suria, as I've mentioned that he's a co CEO at PeopleQ. So what we're really going to do today is just talk a little bit about some of the strategies and tactics and approaches. And that's really something that Melina and the team of people can focus on. So we're gonna hear from them, as always, love to hear your questions and comments. So please put them up in the chat. And we'll be monitoring that and interrupting as we go and bring those questions out. But we'll also have time for a Q&A towards the end. So, before I do hand over to Melina, a little bit about Teamgage. So this is I think, the sort of perfect quote that comes from one of our co-founders, Noelle, Why do we exist? well we want to help every team in every workplace to continuously improve the way they work together. That's the why behind what Teamgage does  and why we come to work every day to keep building our team, our company and our product. So how do we actually work? Well, Teamgage, fundamentally believes on feedback as a fundamental way to actually develop and continuously improve. So we don't just want to do a once a year employee engagement survey, we want to be continuously asking the team about what's working and what's not, sharing those results transparently as an individual team, and then making decisions as a team and putting actions in place so that we can continuously improve. And it's really fundamental, I suppose, from our point of view that this is done bottom up, and that teams have ownership and visibility into, like I said, how they're working well, and perhaps what needs some focus or improvement. The philosophy I suppose that underpins Teamgage is one of continuous improvement. This is not a one time only affair. This is the idea that you need to constantly be looking at the way you're working, you need to be constantly talking about that as a team coming up, and I suppose experimenting with ideas and new initiatives, and then once you've actually put them into practice is reviewing, well did they make the change? And did they have the impact that we were hoping? And if they didn't, that's fine, we learned something. But if they did, fantastic, let's celebrate that, let's talk about that. Why did that initiative, or why did that action have to change? And then we start that process again. And so that's that continuous improvement philosophy that underpins everything about what we build at Teamgage. So that's probably enough about Teamgage and what we do, because really, why we're here today is to hear from Melina and Suria, about people, and some of the amazing work that they do with their clients and NLB to customers.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Thank you so much, Ben, I'm just going to share my screen if that's okay with everyone. And I just want to take a moment before I get started. If it's okay, I would like to read out something I wrote about acknowledgement to country. And it's something that I've become, I guess, deeply intimate about of late and I'm loving some of the acknowledgments I'm seeing in the chat. So I'm going to read this out word for word if that's okay, I just want to take this opportunity to acknowledge the Kaurna people who were the custodians of the lands and the waters of the Adelaide region on which some of us are standing on today. And I also want to pay a deep respect to elders past and present. And we acknowledge and respect to the Kaurna people's cultural, spiritual, physical and emotional, emotional connection with their land waters and the community. So thank you for that. Alright, let's get stuck into it. If it's okay. Suria and I spent some time looking at, you know, we've got 30 minutes, it's a very short period of time to try and condense a really broad topic. So what's going to be beneficial for everyone? So we've kind of broken it up into three parts. One part is we just want to spend a bit of time I guess, sharing with you, our observations, our research and our knowledge around, you know, what it looks like and what it feels like to thrive in the workplace. And then the other thing was, I thought it was just we thought it was important that we at least look at you know, what are some of the markers, or some of the things that you want to be aware of to recognise what burnout looks like, or when we're in that survival mode. And then the third part is we wanted to be able to share some tips as well we're not going to be able to go into too many and I have been known to try and squeeze too much into a short period of time. So Ben Colley Slap my hand if I start to do that.

Suria Ward  

Will do Mell, right so before we kick off into all the juicy content, we'd like to do a quick wellbeing check if that's okay with everyone. So you'll notice a little barcode if you could grab your device or phone and scan the barcode and answer the question. The three words describe how you're feeling today. energised. Overwhelmed, tired. Relaxed, tired, overwhelmed, busy. Thanks, Rosemary.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Good lighting up.

Suria Ward  

lots of diversity in what we're feeling.

Ben Colley  

is the tip Diana. So he said, you don't have a QR reader, if you do you have a smartphone, iPhone or Android, normally, you can just hold your camera over the QR, you don't actually need a dedicated reader. So just so you know.

Suria Ward  

Sleepy, I love that.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Me too! A little bit sleepy as well, I'm just gonna take a picture of this, I'm loving the diversity of what we're seeing on the screen today. Now, we have quite a lot of people on the call. And I just want to take a moment to just step back and observe, you know, this is what we're experiencing just those on the call in this moment, imagine what's happening in the workplace all around us on a daily and a regular basis. So it's really just about acknowledging that people are in different places and, dealing with different things. But we're also sometimes experiencing both sides of you know, being positive and energised and also overwhelmed all at the same time. There's a few more coming in. I'm Ben, I love to start off with this. I think it's important that before we go into any conversation, I really want to engage the audience in just taking a moment to pause and reflect on how they're feeling. It just kind of helps us to almost, you know, acknowledge that observe that but also, you know, press always the pause button before we reset to go into a new conversation. But I also want to hold on to some of the words we're seeing on the screen today as well, because they really do talk to today's topic, from surviving to thriving. I wanted to start with first sharing a bit of research around this idea of a high performing workplaces and a low performing workplace. And by the way, they there's tonnes and decades of research around this. But this particular one really spoke to me for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's Australian, and it's conducted by the University of New South Wales. And I think it's really culturally relevant to the people in Australia today. But the University of New South Wales did some research. And they found that there are some things associated with a high performing workplace. And I guess this for me is really about, you know, doesn't make sense to actually want to be motivated to aspire and work towards a thriving workplace. And if you don't have a business case for it, here it is, for all those HR directors out there today. Right? If we are operating with a high performing workplace, what we tend to see is much higher productivity, we also tend to see a better capability of achieving your financial targets, a better return on profit margins, you know, the organisation becomes much more efficient at convert converting its inputs into outputs. And here's what every shareholder will love every dollar invested, you get more return on it. So if you wanted a business case for it, this is where I'd recommend our audience to go to find those numbers. But there's more reason that we would do it other than just having a business case for it. You know, for me, this is really about we spend the majority of our time working in the workplace, whether it's virtual, or whether it's face to face, or whether it's a combination. That's where we spend the majority of our time. So it makes sense that you would want to, you know, make sure that when you're in that space, when you're connecting with those people that you're getting a sense of, I don't know, I'm going to say joy from it as well. Yes, there's going to be the ups and downs, but you want to get a sense of joy from it as well. So I did want to put this question out there to our audience, and I want to ask you to think about a thriving workplace and what words come to mind for you.

Suria Ward  

loving these words Mel collaboration.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

And I just love them. I just want to say the word. Sorry, guys, I get a little bit excited.

Ben Colley  

It's amazing when you see words like trust and collaboration just a clearly. So that resonates with all of us, even though we're all over Australia potentially all over the world, also different and yet some fundamental approaches or ideas or words that just all resonate with each of us.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Absolutely, absolutely. There's also a fair bit of diversity here as well. So there's definitely words that resonate with all of us. But there's also diversity. And I just want the audience to hold on to that we don't have time to go into the nitty gritties. But people need different things from the workplace. And we want to remember that there's a lot of different words there as well that talk to things like energy. And there's a lot of themes around teamwork, collaboration, and communication as well. I am just loving all of this, because it's kind of validating some of the work we're doing Ben with your Teamgage platform, which is amazing, and our clients that use the PQ factor, metrics as well. So I'm going to let this peak flowing in while I start to kind of transition and talk to the next slide. We have, I'm fascinated, by the way with high performing workplaces, there's a number of reasons why I'm fascinated with it. I like to think where I came from was an environment that high performance was something that was almost celebrated and looked upon with or so you know, we were constantly looking for ways to achieve it. But I'm also fascinated with it, because I wanted to do a bit more deeper work to really try and understand, you know, what are some of the most important elements that are going to help us achieve that. And additionally, with this second wave of positive psychology, some of the, I guess, themes that have come out of that is how we help individuals flourish. And so what we've seen in the last sort of 12 to 18 months, a little bit longer than that, is this trend in a discussion around, you know, what if we were to make the workplace one where everyone thrives, what would that look like? And so based on a fair bit of research that we've done, we have, I guess, devised what I like to call a bit of a roadmap. And so when you think about what it is to just survive, or when you're in burnout mode, what you're experiencing is, you know, this exhausted feeling this fatigue, you've kind of got nothing left, you've exhausted all of your resources, a lot of constant stress, and overwhelm, where maybe you're just doing things and you're efficiently getting them done, but you really don't have that much energy in reserve. Whereas when we go to high performing, you know, there's more use of strengths that are occurring, people are a bit more adaptive, there's kind of more learning happening. And then we come to this idea of thriving, and I like to think of as thriving as being almost the next level on to high performing. And when we're thriving in the workplace. I want to use the word energy, because that's so important and so important to some of the tips we're going to talk about today as well. But you kind of have this sense of energy, the sense of, you know, almost form forward momentum where you're engaged, and you're motivated, and you feel stimulated. And you're also you know, when I say growing, you feel like you know, more you understand more, and therefore you can do more. So we have a Q&A, that question.

Ben Colley  

We certainly do. So this one, I suppose, a little bit specific to 10 gauge, but I would love your take on it. Mel is how do you recommend we genuinely use the information from Teamgage? It's being surfaced? Yeah, group, the culture where perhaps the CEO or some of the leadership don't appear to value the feedback or act on it, or perhaps they're a little resistant to change.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Yeah. And you know what, I have to say, Ben, that's, you know, sometimes it's a common one. And so thank you for the question. And I have come across it before and so this is what I would say, first, for a CEO to be on board with it. And we deal with more medium sized organisations. So we're constantly dealing with business owners, there needs to be a bit of a business case for it. And so if you can appeal to, I guess, what's important to them from a business case perspective, you might start to get a bit of engagement from them. So what I mean by that is, they might then start to listen. And then from there, once you've got their real because they need to support it to be able to do this. The best way to then implement this to improve culture is to look at where your priorities are. So what's critical at the moment, you know, are you experiencing high turnover is your revenue, not where it needs to be? A people starting to, you know, talk about this kind of stress and overwhelm, and you kind of feel like this great resignation is really lurking over your head. So their priorities, you then want to think about what are the things we need to do in the culture to help people through this period to keep them there? And it might be simple things like, you know, when we need to perhaps, you know, create a more inclusive environment or more connection in the environment. So then that's how I would use Teamgage. Absolutely.

Ben Colley  

agree more. I think that that idea of understanding what's important to them, we're talking about right now, like what's important that individual teams to thrive. But there's also a reality that for CEO for the leadership, there's something that's important to them and the organisation. And so I think it's understanding what that is. And you know, we fundamentally believe in individual teams having ownership and the change being driven from the bottom up. But we also completely accept and want to work with leadership and CEOs to understand what's important to the whole organisation, and what are they trying to achieve? What's their strategic objectives for this year, over the next five years, and find that balance between the two?

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Yeah. And I think there's, well, if you're still struggling to get somebody on board, and your CEO on board with that, as I like to say, project out for them, what it might look like for the min two to three years time, because often they don't think that forward. So you project out for them and show them what could possibly happen if you continue doing nothing. And if they're happy with that, there's not much you can do about it. But the chances are, they're going to want to go okay, well, let's start talking about it. Jennifer asked a question about how we support people to maintain positivity and a growth mindset, I would just I've just come off a workshop where we've launched a programme around building leaders emotional intelligence. And I just want to say this, I think it's really important to acknowledge that there's absolutely diversity there adversity there. And that there's going to be difficult time. So we don't want to try and avoid, I guess, the negative in a situation. But Jennifer, in a few slides time, I'm going to share with you a tip around how leaders can I guess, occur proactively cultivate a more sort of optimistic mindset, because I think that's the key is helping people create that optimistic mindset to move into that growth mind set as well. So just going back to thriving, so this for me is where the differences between high performing moving up to thriving. It's this feeling of being alive and energised this sort of progress and forward momentum that you feel you're moving forward. But we've all of this show knowledge is actually growing as well. And so we also wanted to take an opportunity to share with you some themes that we think are important to cultivate in this thriving environment. And so when you look at tools, like Teamgage, and you think what kind of questions could I ask, these are the things that I would recommend you kind of focus on, and I'm not going to talk to all of them, but I do want to share, I think a few that are really close to my heart, but if that's okay. And this is this idea of connection, it is so important that we feel connected to people. It is part of building our resilience. And so it takes a fair bit of skill from a leadership perspective to really understand how you can do that and how you can nurture that. But I also want to talk to this idea of purpose and vision, specifically purpose. You know, sometimes when we feel a bit helpless and loss or hopeless, we struggle to find meaning in the work that we do. So purpose is really this deep sense of creating meaning and understand what the contribution is that you're making to the community or to others around you in the workplace. And that it's not just a job, and you're not just processing invoices, you're making a much more bigger contribution than that. And we do a fair bit of work with our clients in helping them to really unpack the organization's purpose. And I'm just going to go quickly back to this idea of the CEO who wants to change, I look at it, this is my acronym, you can all take it and use it, by the way, but I look at it from the perspective are you focused on eye on only the two peas or the four peas. So if you're only focused on two peas, its profits for pockets. But if you're focused on the four peas, you actually understand how important purpose and people are to get to the other two that have to come first. At the end of the day, how satisfied your people are, will determine the level of service your customers and clients are receiving, and will also determine how your brand is perceived by the marketplace.

Ben Colley  

I love that, like the why is so incredibly important. And I think often, you know, we see that the vision or the vision of the organisation can sometimes be taken as like, it's a nice slogan on the website. But it's so much more than that. And that's why like the first slide that I brought up was the white page exists, we talk about it all the time, every single day. And sometimes it's sort of in conversation in casually. And more often than not, it's actually formally as a whole team. And we exist to make every team in every workplace work better together. Like that's why we're here. And it's really important that we keep reinforcing that talking about it because there are days when it's hard for whatever reason. And it's like you forget the why. And perhaps you feel like you're just moving the invoice from slot A to slot baby. But if you talk about the why it's a good reminder of the reason that you exist and your team exists in the organisation exists.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

then, and can I just say the reason why we started working with Teamgage is because of that, because there was so much alignment in our values, beliefs and our purpose, which is to have a positive impact on culture. And it made it easy, I think, for us to also then have some robust and authentic conversation about how this partnership could work. And here we are now two years down the track. And I'm so glad that the partnership is working. But the reason why I'm purpose helps you to thrive is because from an individual perspective, it helps you to see how you know, what you're doing is actually going to make a difference, that it's not just a job. And that in itself creates that engagement. I think as well. One of the other themes that is coming through strongly when we look at this idea of thriving is that from an organisational perspective, we look at putting some focus into creating some sort of well being and mental health programme to support the people in our business. They are they're delivering a service to our clients. I think that they're the most important people, right? Because the better they feel, the more tools they have to actually navigate and overcome difficult situations, the better the outcome for our clients and our customers. So I think it's important that we put some focus into that. Yeah, no, I

Ben Colley  

just had a great question come in. If that's okay. This comes from Carla and an exam, we often think that the end goal of an organisation should be to create highly engaged individuals and high performing teams. But in my experience, this is college experience. Just because a team is high performing or an individual is engaged, doesn't mean they won't suffer from burnout. And so how do you protect those individuals and those teams from that burnout after that was a great question.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

I'm trying to look through the Q&A to find the question there from Carla and I can't see it, but it is a great question. Absolutely. And I'm gonna say this upfront. And by the way, I when we do these kinds of things, the one thing that I don't do is profess to be the expert in every single area because I have a deep belief that there's more benefit to the collective intelligence and that together we would do better things and better outcomes. But in terms of burnout, I you know, there are a few things that you can do to help individuals and I think the first step is you've got to recognise what burnout is. And then if you go back to this one of these themes about our well being programme, I say think outside of the box, some of our well being programmes at the moment that we're seeing, because of, you know, so many people working virtually, and wonderful care packages, where organisations are delivering care packages to the doorstep of their employees. And I just wonder if you could perhaps, you know, engage a well being expert, or someone who does work in resilience to come in and offer some virtual training and tools to our people, to help them build their energy levels. And I'm just going to give our HeartMath programme, a little plug here, that's it. But there are many people that do this kind of work, and I have someone that I collaborate, and she offers Well, being programmes where they're all run virtually. And you can get your people to come along. They're very cost effective, but it just gives them some tools. But I think the first step is recognising what is burnout, and if burnout is any different to stress, and because there is a difference between the two.

Suria Ward  

Well, can I just quickly add my two little cents?

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Sorry, sorry, I'm gonna zip it.

Suria Ward  

Now you are on a roll Mel. So I didn't want to disrupt you. And but just two callers question. The other simple thing you can do is just make sure your team take their leave. And that they have they have regular breaks, and that they you know, they don't get to that point where you know, that feeling burnt out. So that's something simple that all leaders can manage quite easily is just making sure that they're taking their leave. Thanks, Mel.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

You're welcome. Can I just add to that, as well, one of the tips I we gave one of our clients was to say, you know, if you're having a one to one virtually or remotely with one of your team members, go out for a walk together, and have that one to one. And there's a few reasons why you do that when we're in nature, it energises us, and it helps us to renew our energy levels. So it's a good way to kind of start thinking about burnout from the perspective of energy, and how we can renew energy. Sogo for a virtual walk with them. The other thing is, when we're actually walking together, our brains tend to become in sync and a bit more aligned. So it might be even a difficult conversation about something that's happened, you might find that as they're renewing their energy by taking a walk outside, and there's a bit of air around and blue skies and a few trees on the street, that you might find it a bit easier to then have that difficult conversation and try and reach a positive resolution together. Yeah, oh, Cassie, that's a good one. I do not love that. Leave your problems at the door. As you enter the workplace. We are everything that we bring. And it's really hard for people to try and avoid or push them to the surface what they're experiencing. My preference is to go in, in an empathetic matter if in an empathetic way, if you see someone is struggling, take a moment to take them aside as soon as they get there. And, you know, exercise a bit of empathy. How are you? Are you okay? Is there anything I can do? What can I do to help you get through the day, and just kind of help them you know, talk about whatever it might be and reset before they go back into the environment and start the day. Trust is a big one as well. I don't think we have too much time to unpack trust. And we're going to try and leave you though with a tip around trust, because there are so many complex elements to it as well. But what I would like to say that is this I and I think this is really important to acknowledge and you said it right at the beginning, Ben, culture is not a project, it is not something that you go, I'm going to leave that with the HR director or the leadership team to work on as a project and then they can come to us. Culture is something that is continuous, it's ongoing, and culture is as a result of how we all behave in the environment. Soto cultivate a thriving organisation and a thriving culture, I believe it starts with us, the individual and to build that positive culture. It has to start with us as well because we do have an impact on those around us. So you've got to be first accountable to yourself before you can hold others to account or be accountable to others, which means it's an in To be true thing as well as a collective thing, as well as something that goes across the organisation. But just quickly burnout. And I think I'm running out of time. So I'm going to try and go through this really fast Ben and Surya just jump in whenever you want to. But I wanted to share with you these two definitions of burnout. And funnily enough, these date back many decades, I'm not going to say how far but they're far back. But I think there's some themes here. And some of the themes are that burnout is as a result of something that's more long the term, it's ongoing. It's relentless. But what it's also doing is it's, it's zapping all of our energy from all the different areas, and it's almost leaving us depleted of any resources. So it's not just physical burnout. It's not just cognitive or mental burnout, it's emotional, it's physical. It's cognitive. And it's also spiritual burnout as well. And it's this idea of being sort of frustrated, or almost disillusioned as well with where everything is going.

So something fun that I'm going to leave this with our audience to think about silently, if we want to try and recognise where our relationship might be with burnout, or where those in our teams might be, here's a really quick fun quiz. It's certainly not extensively and it's not covering everything. But what I can say is this to the audience. And this is very personal, I have personally experienced burnout. And I can tell you, I could probably check very often to all of these at that point in time, and so much more. And I wish I had the tools back then to be able to navigate, I have them now. And I'm feeling so much more like I'm thriving, even though I can get exhausted. But it's really important. And this is what I mean by that it's individual, you have to make a choice, I had to make a choice to recognise it within myself and start to want to do something about it.

So let's talk about individuals and what we can do about it. And this talks back to this goes back to one of the earlier questions about growth mindset and a positive work environment. So one of the things that we can do is build our resilience. And this is our personal resilience. And in doing that, we can also share those tips and tools with our teams and those around us. And when you look at resilience, by the way, resilience is a growing field of research. There's only 12 formal definitions right now, but it actually is growing every day. So there is no doubt that this will continue to change, because it's quite a broad topic. But there are some commonalities to all of those definitions. And those commonalities are this is that is that resiliency is dynamic. So it's not like you build it, and then you keep building on top of it, it can go up and down. So to say I'm feeling resilient, I'm resilient, because I've navigated such difficult circumstances behind me doesn't mean that you maintain that level of resilience moving forward. So it can be dynamic. But it's also about where we place our attention, and how we choose to adapt in that moment of adversity. And so when we also talk about the areas in the domains of resilience, and I want to give credit to HeartMath here, we want to think about building personal resilience in more than one area. Often we go internally, Ben, and we go, right, I've got to think through things differently. I want to broaden my perspective, I want to have a growth mindset. But actually, you want to look at all of these four domains in terms of how you might build your personal resilience. So there's the emotional domain, the cognitive domain, spiritual is about our values, our beliefs, the essence of who we are. And there's also physical resilience as well. So you want to make sure that you're taking some action across all of these.

Ben Colley  

I'll just gonna say I love that idea of the different areas. And that, I suppose speaks to me from the idea of like compounding. And so it's not that it's just one area or then the second area. It's when you're working on both of those kind of independently, they actually reinforce each other and then become greater than those individual kind of areas that you've improved.

Melina Lipkiewicz  

Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to talk to one of the comments that has come through And I absolutely agree. Speaking from my own experiences, once you hit serious burnout, it can take months to recover. And I can tell you, Ben, I took months to recover. And I think this is why it's important that if we want to create a thriving environment, we've got to acknowledge that, you know, people might be close to burnout. And if they are the heart of our business, what can we do? What tool scan we share with them to help them before it gets to that point, because unfortunately, I did get to the point where from a health perspective, it actually had an impact. And I think I spent three months almost sleeping just to recover from part of that, you know, I've, you know, other things since then, as well. But back to these domains, and back to things that we can do at an individual level. So the first is that everyone's going to have different strengths in those four areas. So there's going to be things we already do well, for example, some people might be really good at being disciplined around going to Pilates or the gym or running on a regular basis. I wish it was me, but it's not. So recognise where your strength is, and then recognise what some other things are that you can do in some of those other domains to bring some balance to where those energy leaks might be, so that you're not depleting your resources. There was a question as well around the skills that leaders will need to be able to, I guess, you know, navigate from surviving or burnout all the way through to thriving. And these are some of the key skills that you're looking at, I talked about before the person who's got a strength in physical resilience, they're really disciplined. Right? Well, it's really important to be disciplined around all of those areas. And of course, that kind of level of awareness to know before you get too burned out, I need to pause and I need to take control and accept that it's time to do something differently.

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